City Lawyers get plum deals !

[WatchinU]

http://www.heraldnews.com/news/local_news/x392060369/Council-undecided-on-corporation-counsel-pay-hike

I thought this was a very accurate comment at the end of this article.

"Henryh
Does it bother anybody that we're paying 4 PART-TIME employees almost $500,000 a year? That's what it costs with the insane benefits they are getting.
' All receive health and life insurance, retirement, deferred compensation, sick leave, personal days and vacation.'
This figure does not even include the cost of support staff such as secretary's and expenses which I'm sure the city is picking up the entire cost. There is no reason on earth that this necessary service is not put out to competitive bidding like every other major purchase the city makes should be. Either hire full time employees that accept the job with a fair pay rate, or outsource the service via a compettive bidding process.
Does anybody know who keeps track of these part-timers? Is this $500k paid out on the honor system? Are there weekly logs of time worked for each part-timer? Who oversees their expenses? Tracks their hours worked?
This has to be the mother of all plum jobs in Fall River. And obviously it did not start with Mayor Correia, so this is no reflection on him. It would be nice if he would clean it up though. Put this service out to competitive bidding, or hire our own legal employees that work full time for the city, and report to work every day on a set schedule. THAT'S what employees do. "

[Builder]

Lets say these lawyers cost us about $100,000 each, with all the benefits.
And lets say they work 20 hours a week, for 50 weeks. Round figure, about 1000 hours. $100,000 divided by 1000 hrs = $100 per hour. If you went to a lawyer for any case, and he told you he charges $100/hr, you'd say "either he's a bum, or he's stupid. No lawyer works for $100 /hr". I'd guess that the local average lawyer rate is $175 - $250 per hour. I have no idea if we really need 4 of these guys, or how much of a caseload that the city has. But at $100 bucks an hour, I think it's a very good rate rate for the city to pay.

But I do wonder what happens if we have a year with a heavy caseload. Is overtime provided for in these contracts? I'd like to see these contracts structured so that they handle all the cases for the city, with none being outsourced (except for special circumstances). Maybe the 20 hrs could be an absolute minimum, but no cap on the upside on a bad year (as long as we have the same amount of lawyers).

The bottom line is...yes it's a high rate to pay an employee. But lawyers get to charge a high rate for their work. It's just a fact of life. I think the Mayor is not out of line on this issue. Forget all the personal issues, and likes or dislikes. You can't logically argue that $100/hr for an attorney is overpriced.

[FRCBlog3]

What Builder of course fails to mention is that part of the legal industry is the existence of contingency fees, which means that if a lawyer is succesful in a case, the lawyer earns a specified percentage of the award, but if the lawyer loses, the lawyer may not be compensated at all and may even suffer a loss for taking the case. This is a reason why lawyers charge such high hourly rates... to cover the work for lost cases.

The staff of the law department don't have to worry about the risk of contingent fees, and not worry about accepting a case today, where the payday will only be resolved years from now.

Under normal employement, people work 1 week, get compensated for that work the following week, and the pay is consistent (hours worked x pay rate). The legal business is just different, as mentioned that compensation may come much later than when the work was done. Sometimes taking cases is risky.

I would agree that 48k is too low for a corporation counsel, but 85k plus benefits for 21 hours of work is too much. Also, the process is flawed again by Mayor Correia placing the money for the raise in the budget, but only introducing the issue of increased pay after the budget was already passed.

[FRCBlog3]

I also wanted to add for comparison the salaries of FULL-TIME attorneys at the DA's office....

Berkshire County $40,000
Bristol County $37,500
Cape & Islands $37,500
Essex County $37,500
Hampden County $37,500
Middlesex County $37,500
Norfolk County $37,500
Northwest District $37,500
Plymouth County $37,500
Suffolk County $40,000
Worcester County $37,500

Source: Northeastern School of Law (http://www.slaw.neu.edu/career/pdf/DAInfo.pdf)

To Builder, I just logically argued that $100/hr for an attorney is overpriced!!

Do the math to calculate the hourly rate of the attorneys at the DA's office. Finally, it's not even a comparison between the amount of work the attorneys at the DA's office have to deal with in comparison with a corporatoin counsel and the rest of the law department staff.

[SmartBusiness]

Although I agree with FRC that the part-time salaries for our lawyers may be too generous, I have to disagree with most of his points:

a) Lawyers do not charge high hourly rates to cover the cost of lost cases. That's just absurd. They charge high rates because they need to operate their business. A lawyer's office generally has a decent amount of staff, but the lawyer is the only producer. He needs to generate enough billings to cover the costs of the entire operation. Rent, utilities, taxes, secretaries, insurance, expenses, etc. The lawyer is the only person generating any revenue to pay for all these people and expenses.

Contingency cases: Lawyers are not in the gambling business. Contingency cases are only accepted when the lawyer is able to make a damn good judgement of what he can count on. Many contingency cases are guaranteed by statute, such as Workers Comp cases. Criminal lawyers very seldom ever take a contingency case. They often get it all up front. If their guy goes to the can, what's his chances of getting paid? Do criminal lawyer's work cheaper because they don't do contingency? Of course not.

The comparison of Atty's in the DA's office is totally misleading. Those wages you provided are for inexperienced 1st year lawyers applying for their 1st jobs. Some of those jobs don't even require that they have passed the bar yet. I believe that our city lawyers all have 10-15 years experience. I also believe that they each are specialized in specific legal areas.

In the very 1st post, henryH suggested this legal work be put out to competitive bidding. I agree with that idea. What better way to find out what a fair market rate is for this service? Let the market decide. Put it out for a 3 year contract. We know what the volume of work is, so it's not a guessing game. It may vary a bit year to year, but we've got a lot of history to get a reasonable average # of cases.

[semass]

Also, the process is flawed again by Mayor Correia placing the money for the raise in the budget, but only introducing the issue of increased pay after the budget was already passed.

It's no different than if you were anticipating giving raises to the city unions, you budget for the increases even though the contract hasn't been negotiated yet. Where else would the money come from if it isn't in the budget?

[Builder]

It's no different than if you were anticipating giving raises to the city unions, you budget for the increases even though the contract hasn't been negotiated yet. Where else would the money come from if it isn't in the budget?

We all do this every day. I think we're all budgeting for higher heating prices this winter. Many of us have not firmed up yet what our contract price will be, but we're budgeting for higher than previous. I believe we all do it all the time for taxes, insurance, etc. We don't know what the actual figures will be, but we'd be foolish not to project what we anticipate and budget accordingly.

[FRCBlog3]

Let me reply to a few things ....

I said that contingency fees are A reason, and not THE reason for high rates. Of course the ability to pay for additional staff is another reason as well. However, it is a business, and some cases don't produce revenue, so since the attorney needs to keep the business afloat, some of the cost has to be shifted. Of course the work that you are billed for as a client is directly related to the work done for your case, but the rate is set high to cover for the missing revenue from lost cases.

While a statute can guarantee the reward the attorney will receive for a victory, the best lawyer won't win every case. So if an attorney takes cases based on contingency, and the attorney is really selective, it will mean longer periods with minimized work and less money, or the attorney can be less exclusive to work on more cases, but risk not getting paid for some cases. Even if a good attorney wins 70-80% of the cases, they still have to compensate for the work on the 20-30% of the losing cases.

The argument about criminal cases is absurd because lawyers can't even charge contingency fees for criminal cases, which is why they need to be paid up front. However, criminal attorneys still have to charge high rates to compensate for the criminal cases in which they are appointed to represent indigent clients and earn a rate much lower than their usual rate or for the cases simply where the criminals don't pay their bills -- criminals are not really the most responsible people.

Builder wrote "You can't logically argue that $100/hr for an attorney is overpriced." I clearly showed that there are some government attorneys that get paid substantially less than $100/hr. Under Builder's theory, the staff at the DA offices throughout the commonwealth must either be bums or stupid.

District Attorney Sam Sutter earned nearly $150,000 for 2007 working an average of 35 hours per week (according to the Boston Herald). Ok, so let's do the math...

35 hours per week x 50 weeks = 1750 hours. $150,000/1750 hours = $85.71/hour

OMG, the District Attorney earns less than $100/hour. He must be a bum or stupid!

This doesn't even compensate for the factors that the District Attorney does more work and has a larger staff than the corporation counsel. Not to mention that the District Attorney at least is elected by the voters so there's some level of accountability there.


The point about the budget that neither semass nor Builder grasped was that the City Council should have approved the raise first, and THEN include the raise in the budget.

Both semass and Builder use the argument of anticipated raises. Heating, taxes, and insurance are costs that come from an outside group. The raise in question was not unanticipated because it is the Mayor himself that is initiating the extra cost. The Mayor placed the money for the raise in the budget, and once the budget was passed, then brought the idea to the City Council. It's just the wrong way to do it. He should have had their approval first. Of course the money comes from the budget (although budgets are not fixed, and allow for transfers), but including the new salary without the City Council approval was presumptuous and inappropriate.

[Builder]

District Attorney Sam Sutter earned nearly $150,000 for 2007 working an average of 35 hours per week (according to the Boston Herald). Ok, so let's do the math...


FRC,
Can you provide that Boston Herald link? I can't seem to be able to locate it.

[FRCBlog3]

http://www.bostonherald.com/projects/payroll/massachusetts/

Department: Bristol District Attorney

Bristol District Attorney C Sutter ... District Attorney/35 hrs 35 $148,843.00 $142,457.00

[Builder]

http://www.bostonherald.com/projects/payroll/massachusetts/

Department: Bristol District Attorney

Bristol District Attorney C Sutter ... District Attorney/35 hrs 35 $148,843.00 $142,457.00

FRC,
First of all, I'm not crazy about paying a DA $149,000 plus benefits for 35 hours a week. But that's a subject for another day.

Your calculations neglected to include the cost of the benefits package Mr. Sutter gets in addition to his base pay of $149,000. In my earlier post I allowed about $25,000 in benefits for each of the city lawyers. I'll assume the same for Mr. Sutter.

You've pretty much made my point by providing this information. Sutter is getting paid almost exactly what the city of Fall River is paying.
Sutter gets $149,000 base, plus lets say another $25,000 in benefits package.
Total package value = $174,000 Hours worked= 50 weeks x 35 hrs = 1750hrs

$174,000 divided by 1750 hrs = $99.42 per hour. Almost exactly the same rate that the city is paying our lawyers. I'm telling you....it's not a bad deal. You may not care for Mr. Correia, but this arrangement is at about the fair market value for these services.

[FRCBlog3]

You're backtracking!... you said that it was illogical to say that paying an attorney $100/hour is overpriced. Even with your adjustments for benefits, the District Attorney still only earns about $100/hour... must be a bum or stupid.

Other factors: Do we really want to compare the workload of the District Attorney and the Corporation Counsel? What about the management of a larger budget and larger staff?

To argue that the salary of the Corporation Counsel should be equivalent to the District Attorney is silly.

[daisy]

You're backtracking!... you said that it was illogical to say that paying an attorney $100/hour is overpriced. Even with your adjustments for benefits, the District Attorney still only earns about $100/hour... must be a bum or stupid.

Other factors: Do we really want to compare the workload of the District Attorney and the Corporation Counsel? What about the management of a larger budget and larger staff?

To argue that the salary of the Corporation Counsel should be equivalent to the District Attorney is silly.

I have to agree with FRCBlog3 but to settle this why don't you contact some comparable attorneys to our current city attorneys and get a ballpark figure!

[FRCBlog3]

Just to be clear, I am not comparing the competency between Attorneys Sutter and Frank. Regardless if it is Attorneys X and Y, District Attorney X will always have a larger caseload and more staff than Corporation Counsel Y. Which to me means that they should not be earning comparable salaries.

As for comparisons, Inquire Fall River wrote some time ago:

"The City of Lowell that is the fourth largest municipality in the Commonwealth pays their Chief Solicitor who works FULL time only slightly over $100,000 annually, $108,000 to be exact. So cut that in half and you arrive at the number $54,000."


From what I can tell from the Brockton budget (http://www.cityofbrockton.com/Docs/fy_2008_budget.pdf)

The City Solicitor earns a salary of $60,000, the part-time assistant earns $45,000, and 2 full-time assistants earn $62,500 each.

[daisy]

Just to be clear, I am not comparing the competency between Attorneys Sutter and Frank. Regardless if it is Attorneys X and Y, District Attorney X will always have a larger caseload and more staff than Corporation Counsel Y. Which to me means that they should not be earning comparable salaries.

As for comparisons, Inquire Fall River wrote some time ago:

"The City of Lowell that is the fourth largest municipality in the Commonwealth pays their Chief Solicitor who works FULL time only slightly over $100,000 annually, $108,000 to be exact. So cut that in half and you arrive at the number $54,000."


From what I can tell from the Brockton budget (http://www.cityofbrockton.com/Docs/fy_2008_budget.pdf)

The City Solicitor earns a salary of $60,000, the part-time assistant earns $45,000, and 2 full-time assistants earn $62,500 each.


correct, compare apples to apples!

[backyard]

we are basing this argument on assumption. Are 5 part time attorneys working an average of 20 hours per week? Is there accountability? Hours logged? And I'm not assuming these things aren't being done. Would be nice to know though.

[FRCBlog3]

Actually it's not based on assumption, it was reported in the Herald News (http://www.heraldnews.com/news/x144225200/City-corporation-counsels-bankruptcy-brought-to-light) that "The assistant corporation counsels receive $75,000 to $77,000 plus benefits and, like Frank, are listed as 21-hour, part-time employees."

Whether the hours are being logged or not is not the primary issue. The issue is that $75k is too much for a 21/hour part-time job in comparison to full-time staff in other municipalities earning about $60k.

[Builder]

DA Sam Sutter- 35 hrs. per week for $175 grand?

The more I thought about it, I'm shocked that this job only requires 35 hours per week. And...that it pays $175 grand (total with benefits) for so few hours.
FRC.... do you find that to be justified, or is it ok because it has nothing to do with Mr. Correia? ;)

[FRCBlog3]

Builder,

You have made a few references to Mayor Correia to somehow connect that it is how I feel about the Mayor that is influencing my opinion on this issue.

You said that an attorney that works for $100/hour is a bum or stupid.

I demonstrated that some attorneys at the DA's officer were earning a salary of $40,000 - much lower than $100/hour.

You countered and stated that the $40,000 salary was wrong because it applied to new attorneys.

I researched that salary for the District Attorney, which even including the addition of benefits, still only earns $100/hour, which by your own standard makes the District Attorney a bum or stupid.

I then argued that the District Attorney should be paid more than Corporation Cuonsel because it is a higher caseload and supervises more staff.

I then offered several examples of other cities to compare the salaries of those corporation counsels. You can see for yourself that the full-time City Solicitor for Brockton earns $60,000 while we are proposing to pay $85,000 for part-time work.

Yet, after all this information and comparisons with other communities, the best argument that you can try to make to counter my position that has been researched, is to say that the only reason I am against the raise for Corporation Counsel is because of Mayor Correia.

Look at the numbers, how is it a good idea to pay $25,000 more for a part-time service that other communities pay full-time. If Brockton pays $60,000 for full-time, and we are going to pay $85,000 for part-time, it's just a bad deal. The numbers don't lie.

If Builder can find any other municipality in Massachusetts that pays $85,000 for a part-time counsel, then I will be happy to see such information.

[Builder]

Builder,

You have made a few references to Mayor Correia to somehow connect that it is how I feel about the Mayor that is influencing my opinion on this issue.

You said that an attorney that works for $100/hour is a bum or stupid.

I demonstrated that some attorneys at the DA's officer were earning a salary of $40,000 - much lower than $100/hour.

You countered and stated that the $40,000 salary was wrong because it applied to new attorneys.

I researched that salary for the District Attorney, which even including the addition of benefits, still only earns $100/hour, which by your own standard makes the District Attorney a bum or stupid.

I then argued that the District Attorney should be paid more than Corporation Cuonsel because it is a higher caseload and supervises more staff.

I then offered several examples of other cities to compare the salaries of those corporation counsels. You can see for yourself that the full-time City Solicitor for Brockton earns $60,000 while we are proposing to pay $85,000 for part-time work.

Look at the numbers, how is it a good idea to pay $25,000 more for a part-time service that other communities pay full-time. If Brockton pays $60,000 for full-time, and we are going to pay $85,000 for part-time, it's just a bad deal. The numbers don't lie.

If Builder can find any other municipality in Massachusetts that pays $85,000 for a part-time counsel, then I will be happy to see such information.

Ok.... I can see that you are not going to budge an inch on this issue. When someone removes logic from a discussion, it makes it difficult to continue.
The next time you are wronged by someone, or need a lawyer to handle an important case for you, go find a lawyer that will take your case for $100 bucks an hour. Let us know your comfort level with his skills and experience, and why he feels he's only worth half of what his peers charge.

[daisy]

Ok.... I can see that you are not going to budge an inch on this issue. When someone removes logic from a discussion, it makes it difficult to continue.
The next time you are wronged by someone, or need a lawyer to handle an important case for you, go find a lawyer that will take your case for $100 bucks an hour. Let us know your comfort level with his skills and experience, and why he feels he's only worth half of what his peers charge.


I think you need to just agree to disagree!!!

[FRCBlog3]

I don't think I removed logic at all from the discussion. In fact, the series of posts are clear that I introduced facts and figures to support my case that $85,000 is too much for a part-time attorney.

Your only argument is that $100/hour for an attorney is not enough, when clearly in other municipalities, full-time attorneys are earning an annual salary of $60,000, yet you want to pay $85,000 for a part-time attorney.

Where is the logic in that?

[bragabridge]

http://www.heraldnews.com/news/local_news/x1435859470/After-long-delay-Frank-gets-pay-hike

Well, the Mayor got his way as always, and he's still handing out $100k jobs like cookies.

I like they way the Hearld put this:
All of those jobs, including Frank’s, are listed as 21-hour positions with full benefits. Frank’s and all but one other have 30-day termination clauses.

"all but one other". There are only 3 of these! ALL can only mean 1 !

I wonder what the "One" that does not have a termination clause says"
Why is this one contract different? Who is it? Does it say that he can be terminated without any notice, or does it say that he can't be terminated at all?

I wonder if these contracts are public information and could be obtained and posted on here? It would be nice for all the taxpayers to see what they are paying and the terms that they are giving their employees.

Fall River must be doing very well economically. Here's some other local news from a very quick search of the Herald and the Providence Journal.

American Power lays off up to 100 workers
Textron lays off 120 more employees
Bank of America to cut 30,000 to 35,000 jobs
Tyco will cut 2,500 jobs
Channel 12 says it is cutting jobs
Mall owner still in talks to stave off bankruptcy
Judge approves KB Toys’ initial bankruptcy motions
New claims for jobless benefits top forecasts
CHF Industries Inc. is laying off 104 employees
Travelers Insurance to lay off 130
Staples Inc to layoff 140
Starwood call center lays off

Maybe all these laid off workers can come to Fall River city hall and apply. Anyone that can hustle enough tickets for Correia is assured of at least an $80k gig. You may need to work more than 21 hours, as those "21 hour" gigs are reserved for a chosen few.

What has to happen before enough people get outraged and this maniac is thrown out of office ?

[daisy]

http://www.heraldnews.com/news/local_news/x1435859470/After-long-delay-Frank-gets-pay-hike

Well, the Mayor got his way as always, and he's still handing out $100k jobs like cookies.

I like they way the Hearld put this:
All of those jobs, including Frank’s, are listed as 21-hour positions with full benefits. Frank’s and all but one other have 30-day termination clauses.

"all but one other". There are only 3 of these! ALL can only mean 1 !

I wonder what the "One" that does not have a termination clause says"
Why is this one contract different? Who is it? Does it say that he can be terminated without any notice, or does it say that he can't be terminated at all?

I wonder if these contracts are public information and could be obtained and posted on here? It would be nice for all the taxpayers to see what they are paying and the terms that they are giving their employees.

Fall River must be doing very well economically. Here's some other local news from a very quick search of the Herald and the Providence Journal.

American Power lays off up to 100 workers
Textron lays off 120 more employees
Bank of America to cut 30,000 to 35,000 jobs
Tyco will cut 2,500 jobs
Channel 12 says it is cutting jobs
Mall owner still in talks to stave off bankruptcy
Judge approves KB Toys’ initial bankruptcy motions
New claims for jobless benefits top forecasts
CHF Industries Inc. is laying off 104 employees
Travelers Insurance to lay off 130
Staples Inc to layoff 140
Starwood call center lays off

Maybe all these laid off workers can come to Fall River city hall and apply. Anyone that can hustle enough tickets for Correia is assured of at least an $80k gig. You may need to work more than 21 hours, as those "21 hour" gigs are reserved for a chosen few.

What has to happen before enough people get outraged and this maniac is thrown out of office ?

We need a Federal Wire Tap evidently.